Josh Bryant http://tinycrumb.com/

Less is awesome but I just wish there was a Less for PHP.

Chris O'Donnell http://chrisodonnell.net/

Less looks interesting, but the operations look like they'd confuse the hell out of me. Variables, mixins, and nested rules look awesome and very well implemented.

I wonder how much time Sass is actually saving people. My guess is that if they're using Sass heavily, they're doing something wrong.

Also, a preprocessor to convert CSS3 to CSS2 would be a godsend.

Nathan Weizenbaum http://nex-3.com/

Hi there. I'm the lead Sass developer, and I wanted to address some of your points.

First of all, the whitespace-sensitivity thing. Sass was originally conceived of as a basically aesthetic alternative to CSS. It quickly grew to be more than that, in that it offered substantially more power to write styles quickly and simply than CSS did. For this reason, and because the proliferation of precompilers with a CSS-style syntax showed us that that's something many people wanted, we decided to add that as well. At the same time, we still want to support the indentation-style syntax for those who prefer it (such as myself).

I don't really understand your reason for saying that supporting two syntaxes will be hard. Both will certainly be adequately tested, and the Sass implementation is decoupled enough from the syntax that keeping them both in order shouldn't be hard at all.

As for multiple properties on one line: this is indeed a flaw with the indentation-based syntax. It will be fixed in version 2.4; semicolons will be allowed between properties, just like in CSS. We'll also probably allow properties to be defined on the same line as selectors by surrounding them with {}.

Finally, control directives. These were not something I originally thought would ever make it into the language. They certainly do seem like they have no place at all. However, it turns out when you're trying to do something sufficiently complex in Sass - in particular, the sort of thing that Compass is trying to do, namely provide a Sass replacement for existing CSS frameworks - they're necessary. They're not intended for day-to-day use, to be sure, which is why they aren't advertised as a feature on the webpage. But without them, we couldn't have Compass, and Compass is a very valuable thing to have.

I have to say, this is one of the most well-thought-out critiques of Sass I've read in a while. If you want, I'd be interested in following up more via email or comments and trying to help you understand why Sass makes the decisions it does and trying to learn from you how I could make it better.

Joshua Brewer http://socialcast.com/

I have to semi-disagree on this one. I have been using SASS for the last 2 years and, yes, at first it was too easy to let things "ballon" way too big. However, if you are careful, it can yield beautiful results.

I was a "single-line" guy before using SASS and I have to say that it has actually helped me be more precise in my writing my styles. As well, the variables and mixins are one of the best things when you are building a large-scale web application that needs to be themed.

As for the argument about a new syntax and friction of teach/sell someone new: currently SASS supports traditional CSS syntax as well as the SASS syntax (which was modeled after HAML). And we have had a couple new people come on board and very easily be up and running in no time and end up loving SASS.

All that to say, "To each his own" and yes, I hope that the preprocessor community can greatly influence the CSS language in great ways very soon!

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Couldn't. Agree. More.

I keep checking in with Sass and LessCSS every month or so to see where they're at, and while I think a lot of the concepts are great, I just can't actually make myself use one, for the reasons you state.

I really think the biggest problem here is that the developers behind these things aren't designers, CSS gurus, or even front-end developers -- they're programmers. They don't really understand the real problems us CSS'ers face, because they generally don't use CSS in the kind of advanced ways we do. That's not a slight against them -- it's just reality.

They've built tools that allow them to scratch their itch with CSS -- but their itch is apparently very different then mine, or yours.

Eli http://elihorne.com/

Agree 100% with Nathan. I've tried various, but they never stuck. And that isn't to say that I'm opposed to tools that speed up the process, I recently fell in love with zen coding.

With regard to your closing note: have you tried rosemary? http://www.bigspaceship.com/blog/labs/a-dash-of-rosemary-...

Ben Bodien http://benbodien.info/

I gave Sass a whirl on an in-house project a few weeks ago, and after getting my head around the new syntax I didn't find it too unbearable. I only used a small subset of the features in introduces to your game - selectors implied by nesting, import includes, and variables to define colour values.

I found selector nesting as much a hassle (a Sassle?) as it was a help, but variables really helped when we had to make small tweaks to the palette of the site.

Having @import parsed and the target file included pre-compilation is pretty nice for organisation purposes, but there are a number of alternatives that do this for you available for most web frameworks.

I agree that Sass isn't the solution that front-end developers are looking for. I'll have to check Less out as that seems to be more of a half-way house.

PS - LOVE this site design! The typography is spot on, and the background image and the subtle grey lines really lift it. The nav is awesome but I find the icons a bit cryptic, having to rely on the status bar and the title tag tooltip for a clue as to what some of them mean. Really beautiful stuff though.

Travis Swicegood http://www.travisswicegood.com/

Agreed. Sass has never felt right to me, and it's a purely aesthetic thing. CSS isn't that hard to teach/learn, it just has a few missing pieces. Tools like Less provide those in a way that seems CSS'y to me.

All that said, I know guys who 4 or 5 years ago were arguing against ORMs like Django's or Rail's ActiveRecord because they could teach any newbie SQL by sending them off to the bookstore. Maybe half a decade from now we'll be the old curmudgeony programmers talking about how back in the day we used to roll CSS by hand and thought tools like Sass weren't useful. :-)

Geoffrey Grosenbach http://peepcode.com/

Sass is an incredible tool for both designers and developers. It would be tragic if designers pass up the opportunity to write clean, organized, non-repetitive CSS because of a few minor complaints.

That being said, I'd love to see another take on the idea of a CSS templating engine. I used one or two of my own before Sass and I'd gladly switch to another if it improved on what Sass does and how it does it. However, I haven't yet seen anything come close in simplicity and completeness.

I agree with you on point 3: Control directives are inappropriate in CSS. I don't use them when I write with Sass.

Point 1 is embarrassing to hear from someone who works in the field of technology. Web developers must learn all the time: web standards, HTML5, jQuery, client-side database storage. If a tool is useful, the cost of learning it will be worth it. If it's not useful, then the problem is something else, not the need to learn.

The best part of this article is the last paragraph! Variables are priceless. They should be designed into CSS natively. Mixins are invaluable. I recently redesigned a few related sites and mixins drastically reduced the amount of CSS I had to write while keeping it more organized. Nested rules alone have done wonders for improving the quality of my CSS and the ease with which I can define relationships between elements.

But this is theoretical. I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison of an advanced site that shows how traditional static CSS can accomplish the things Sass can.

Divya http://nimbu.in/

I use Sass on big portals (I work on a lot of big, complex websites) and it has led me to construct CSS that is better thought out, and written more clearly. Variables, control directives only make it better. Especially when you are trying to style a rating star (with classes ranging from 0 to 10). It is even easier to style navigation sprites using the control directives the same way.

The white-space sensitivity was a pain for me too, but I have gotten used to it now. I would prefer it not to be so though.

SASS certainly makes the code a lot easier to maintain, and it is definitely not easy trying to maintain 2K lines of code and changing classes pixel by pixel.

Matt

"Why the frak do I need control directives in CSS? If I’m using a for loop to generate styles I’m doing something very wrong."

I don't know from Sass, but I've been using a T4 template to generate the CSS for a project I'm working on. I'm mostly using variables and simple math, but I have to say that for loops have been an absolute godsend.

I'm doing grid-based form layout; it seemed like a simple idea at the start of the project, but between a decade's worth of browser-war baggage and IE6/7's lack of box-sizing support, it turned out to be an absolute nightmare. If I couldn't iterate over grid_1 .. grid_12 and calculate form element widths automatically, I'd probably have given up on the whole thing.

(And besides, it's just the principle of the thing. Computers caught on because they're good at math; you know there's something fundamentally wrong with the world when CSS says, "math is hard, you do it" and passes me the calculator. No, thanks.)

Vladimir Carrer http://www.vcarrer.coml/

Great read and discussion!

From the programmer point of view Sass and other programing CSS Frameworks make perfect sense and can be done some cool thing with that. The problem is programmers need to learn new syntax. My fear is they will concentrate to learn Sass or some other framework not CSS . Many of my friends program in ASP.NET and they have no idea what is HTML or CSS. So there are very good at ASP.NET but they are clueless in CSS, the result are obvious nobody uses ASP.NET for building web sites.

And the most important thing CSS debugging. What will you do when cross browser problems come? And they will come. You will debug in the programing CSS Frameworks or write extra CSS to fix the bugs? I wrote many CSS Libraries(Frameworks) and they all have bugs not because of the CSS code itself but for cross browser problems.

So my point is first learn pure CSS than everything else. People think that CSS Frameworks are some miraculous tools and they can do everything.They don't!

Other thing my frameworks are very small size even less then 1kb, but the problem is you will usually use only 10-20% of the framework with Little programing that problem can be resolved.

CSS Frameworks(programing and classical) in general can be good friends only if you know your CSS.

Christian Metts

I finally took the Sass plunge and forced myself to use it for a real project. After considering/avoiding it for months. It's not perfect, but it's made a lot of things much better and huge swaths of the process more enjoyable and productive.

One of the advantages of this project is that it's pretty much just me working on it. I haven't figured out how to use Sass at work or even if that's a remotely good idea, it is friction when multiple people are involved. But the ability to to build a standard library and only have the parts you use compiled into the final CSS would be a big improvement over importing everything and overriding the changed parts as we do now.

Cody Soyland http://codysoyland.com/

Personally I'm partial to Sass's significant whitespace syntax, but I do think it makes more sense to allow CSS syntax, as Less does. I'm happy to see Sass is working towards allowing CSS syntax. That will surely ease the barrier of entry to those who don't want to learn new syntax or those who want to use Sass in a large existing code base without having to refactor everything.

My preference for Sass's syntax is not the main reason I'm using it, though. I think the big win for Sass is Compass. Nathan Weizenbaum mentioned it earlier but I think it's worth repeating: Compass is a very valuable thing to have. CSS frameworks are a whole other can of worms to open debate on, but I find it really impressive that Compass allows you to mix in Blueprint, 960GS, etc. while using readable, semantic class names and ids in your HTML.

As a non-designer, I do have to admit that your opinion carries more clout than mine, but I do think there's still a place for Sass/Compass. For what it's worth, it allows people who are impatient with CSS (like myself) to quickly throw together something that looks decent.

Mason Wendell http://canarypromo.com/

When I discovered Sass and Compass a few months ago I found it satisfied a very deep itch I had for a more logical way to write CSS. I warmed to the syntax very quickly and found that the ability to use variables, mixins, math, and yes, control directives saved me tons of time and headaches on my current project and on each project since.

Regarding 1 & 2): I too hire people and sell websites to clients. Sass has helped our team write better CSS faster, and has been easy to teach. I've never bothered our clients with the details, since we're delivering good clean CSS to them that they're free to alter with or without Sass once the site is handed off. I'm sure many people will find it easier to learn once you can use more CSS-like syntax, but it's been a breeze for me and my team.

As for point 3? If setting up a loop in css that will write sequential lines in CSS and allow me to do something unique on every third one is wrong, then I don't want to be right. This sort of tool has actually helped my creativity and opened up ideas that would have been pretty cumbersome before.

Tools like Sass are just tools, and they have their place and utility. I hope you don't write them off wholesale before they mature. I'm sure at some point you'll have a project that would benefit from some of these features.

David Mosher http://blog.davemo.com/

I think the biggest advantage of SASS/Compass over plain ol' CSS is that it has helped me to write much more semantic markup and remove all the presentational classnames I used to use. I used to think CSS frameworks like blueprint and YUI were a godsend because they normalized things for me as a developer and a designer and removed the need to worry as much about cross browser testing upfront.

However, the more I used these CSS frameworks the more I realized I was populating my HTML with presentational classnames and ids that made reading incredibly difficult and in the end limited the flexibility for me to do redesigns.

Enter SASS/Compass and I can now continue to use the power of these CSS frameworks without all the presentational ids and classnames. Win. The icing on the cake is that reading SASS is much more like reading a DSL (domain specific language) when using the mixins available. It's an abstraction, to be sure, and CSS needs to be well understood at it's own level before diving into SASS but even for neophytes to CSS I've seen massive gains in productivity by explaining the SASS syntax to them and enabling them to produce more in less time with fewer lines of code.

We recently discussed implementing SASS and Compass into one of our largest projects at work which has an insane amount of CSS (7000 lines) for a website with approximately 12 page types and agreed it would probably not make sense to use it to convert our existing CSS to SASS and work that way. However, it's coming to the point where the amount of bleed in those 7000 lines is creating a nightmare to update things without radically altering look and feel site wide. Part of this is due to the nature of a startup and "get it done now" but we also have people contributing CSS who haven't worked with it all before so there is a significant amount of duplication.

We decided to implement SASS/Compass for new development (which I completed last week and which turned out nicely) and we scheduled a re-write task for a further sprint. I say all this to say that SASS/Compass is more than just "another css meta framework"; if you read the materials and watch the video presentations by @nex and @chriseppstein you'll see it's also a design philosophy on how to organize your css. The tidbits regarding "best practices" in their tutorials and learning materials go a long way towards helping to develop much better habits and code much more maintainable CSS.

It's been a revolution for me :)

Jeff Triplett http://jefftriplett.com/

There's not much to learn when you get down to basic whitespace formatting of SASS vs LessCSS and supporting two syntaxes is really a non-issue. This reminds me of the YAML vs JSON arguments for configuration formats. The real answer is use the one that you are more comfortable with or that you feel is more readable.

@import is your friend! 622 lines should be organized into smaller modules anyways. It's standard practice to organize html templates, javascript, and code in a similar method and this does apply well to CSS.

I think the problem is that it's hard to teach designers new tricks. Compass removes the pain points from using SASS. Frameworks like Blueprint, 960, etc actually made sense and seemed to be much more semantically eye pleasing using this approach.

Nathan Weizenbaum http://nex-3.com/

Lots of stuff to address here, so I won't try to be comprehensive. A few points:

The @for directive is basically only there for porting grid frameworks, where you have lots of .column-n classes and such. People have come up with other uses for it since then, but that was the original intent.

The much more useful control structure if @if. It allows not only great flexibility in mixins, but the ability to do things like "compile for WebKit" or "compile for IE". If you set a !browser variable, you can then use @if to compile in sections of your CSS based on that.

As for designers vs. developers: it's true that I'm a developer by inclination, and that is a weakness. I don't think there's a good way around this, since someone has to implement this stuff. But we absolutely rely on the input of designers to figure out what to implement next, what's painful about CSS that should be fixed, and what's painful about Sass. Designers are our target audience. We strive to avoid programming language idioms in Sass for that reason.

I think Mason mentions something important: Sass compiles to very clean CSS. It's perfectly possible to hand someone a design made entirely in Sass and have them use the CSS perfectly happily. Sass cares about the output CSS.

Finally, I wanted to touch on the idea people have been tossing around here about a CSS3 preprocessor by making a little plug. Chris Eppstein is about to release Compass 0.10.0, which has a whole bunch of mixins for portable, nicely-degrading CSS3: http://github.com/chriseppstein/compass/tree/master/lib/c...

Jim Tinsky http://rutherstone.net/wp

SASS doesn't fix my CSS issues like jQuery fixes my javascript issues. If it did I'd use it. Nuff said.

KevBurnsJr http://kevburnsjr.com/

Sass is like a scalpel with a corkscrew.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

In my blog post about stylesheet abstraction (http://chriseppstein.github.com/blog/2009/09/20/why-style...) I talk about a set of features that a CSS preprocessor can provide to make designing websites easier and more maintainable by hiding complexity behind design abstractions.

Sass is the only css preprocessor that has all of the features required to build a framework like compass. Less can't do it. It's missing macro expansion and control structures. But these language features are there for folks like me who are working very hard to make stylesheets more intuitive. When I'm designing websites, I rarely use them. But when I'm building mixins for compass, they are invaluable.

What I'd really like to know is what can Sass and Compass do to make CSS better for designers? We're in the process working on the syntax -- it's going to take a few more months. But what else? How can we make CSS easier to develop and maintain? Stop saying what you don't like and start saying what you WANT. Please make a blog post about that.

Eric Meyer http://www.oddbird.net/

@JeffCroft The main programmers of the underlying language may not be designers. That's true with CSS as well. How shocking is that? Just because we're not writing the main code, don't write us off as somehow a non-presence.

I had the same reactions when I first saw LESS and SASS. I still don't use HAML because it seems the gains are too simple to require a new syntax. HTML and CSS don't have syntax problems I can't handle on my own. Syntax isn't a good enough reason to switch. I also refuse to use normal CSS frameworks because a) I don't like tightly-coupled markup and styles, and b) none of them work the way I want my sites to work. If I look at SASS on it's own I might agree with you.

But Compass is a game-changer. The ability to share and re-purpose code snippets easily is a feature us designers have simply never had available. The ability to write your grid system in terms of the basic (sometimes complex) math, rather than copying in the results from hand calculations is invaluable. Code maintainability is exponentially simpler than CSS, especially when you are handling multiple browsers, progressive enhancement, and experimental properties. By showing your math, you never forget where this or that number came from.

Compass is where the designers become the main developers. Compass is our Django, SASS is just the Python that makes it possible.

Half the reason large sites get bloated CSS is because you have to repeat yourself every three lines. Compass is the true opportunity for Object Oriented and DRY CSS - a change that ought to seem obvious.

Eric Meyer http://www.oddbird.net/

Me in brief: It's not about syntax, it's about abstraction. Django v. Rails is a syntax question - this is Django v. Python. They're the same thing at a different layer of abstract. Abstraction is something worth learning from these programmers who supposedly don't know what we need.

Wayne http://www.crazyontap.com/

To the first commenter, less for PHP: http://leafo.net/lessphp/

Haven't tried it -- just saw your comment and googled. Took a little bit of time to track down but looks effective.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

If you think compass is a glorified grid framework, you really need to do your homework better. It's WAY beyond that. It's a tool for constructing your CSS. That's why I call it an authoring framework instead of a CSS framework.

I can only imagine how someone as awesome at design as you are could make Sass sing if you'd only give it a real try. I challenge you to use it for one project after we release our new css syntax. I'll personally make myself available to you for 8 hours of 1-on-1 support and training during the project implementation.

If you decide you hate it after you've given it a week, delete your Sass files and start editing your generated CSS that been generated for you in one of our four output formatting styles and blog about how you told us so and tell us all the things you hate about it. Either way compass and sass will be better off for it by either gaining a new, talented user or by learning where we're failing so we can keep improving.

Gabe da Silveira http://darwinweb.net/

This is a fantastic post and discussion. I've had many a debate about this, and I tend to come down on Jeff Croft's side.

For the record, I'm more of a developer than a designer, but design was my first love, and I've been wrangling HTML by hand for 15 years now, and CSS for 10.

I see the value of Sass. CSS has some really obvious pain points when it comes to things like standardizing color palettes and certain types of design constructs. It doesn't take much to add a lot of value to CSS, which I think Sass does admirably.

But my problem really boils down to the ubiquity of HTML and CSS. Everyone knows it. Windows, Mac, .NET, LAMP, it doesn't matter, everyone uses it. All the tools support it, and all computers have a web browser where you can view the raw files directly.

As soon as you add a pre-processor like Sass that simplicity is gone. You can no longer work with any designer, you need one that has the pre-processor set up and is comfortable with the syntax. In a pinch you can pass the processed CSS to a designer, but then you have a versioning problem, and you are likely creating lots of busy work for yourself.

You face a similar issue with tools. They all support CSS, and some of them have some really cool features that can only come from having a userbase of a million developers battle testing it over years. It's not just text editors I'm talking about here, but debuggers, spiders, javascript libraries, and who knows what else.

So the real issue with any kind of CSS preprocessor is that by choosing it you are limiting your ability to leverage a whole ecosystem of talent and tools. Ideally a really great pre-processor could someday get enough traction to see itself become a standard, but that is not something we can hope for any time soon.

Is the tradeoff worth it?

For me I default to saying no, because I already have learned how to deal with CSS and it's an insignificant pain point to me compared to all the other things that go into building a great web product.

However in the general case costs vary. If your canonical design already lives in a framework like Rails then Sass doesn't really incur any additional tooling cost, because anybody working on the design already has to have the framework running locally anyway. However there are many team structures and workflows where HTML/CSS mockups ideally can stand alone.

I would love to join a team working with Sass, but I don't think I would choose it for a greenfield project (yet).

Ali http://najafali.blogspot.com/

+1 For the BSG reference. I always try to slip frak into blogposts to see who'll bite.

Stuart Loxton http://www.strawberrysoup.co.uk/

You may want to check out Mechanical CSS - It's a PHP Pre-Processor I wrote; designed to match actual CSS as much as possible but still allows variables and mixins (custom rules). Because it uses normal CSS syntax pasting normal CSS will work fine and you can just use the extra features when needed.

I use it a lot at work with a whole team; I managed to get every one using it without them knowing simply because it works as expected.

http://github.com/stuartloxton/Mechanical-CSS

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

I've told Stuart this before: I think his syntax extensions are some of the most "CSSy" I've seen. It's a very young project, but it holds immense promise.

Tim Lucas http://toolmantim.com/

Just to chime in here to your point of whitespace and file size.

If your SASS file is 622 lines long then you're not using it correctly.

No longer are the days where everyone has their own way of structuring their CSS files to deal with length and to show structure; use @import somefile.sass and split things up into manageable chunks, just as you would your HTML templates.

I put the styles right alongside the HTML/HAML templates as I find it's the most manageable way to deal with change—the HTML and CSS are side-by-side—rarely would you end up with a SASS file so long.

Jeff Triplett http://jefftriplett.com/

@Nathan Borror wuff ;) I'm not trying to paint all designers with the same brushstroke. Frameworks like Rails and Django have come from people (developers, designers, journalists, ...) looking at how web development worked conventionally and saying that there has to be a better and faster way to do this and there was. It seems that people are starting to look at CSS and say the same things but there is a bit more resistance.

The problem of writing a CSS3 to CSS2 compiler is simply that it's hard and not pretty. To get full CSS3 support or something resembling it, it appears that part of the functionality would have be accomplished with JavaScript which feels dirty to me and you'd still have to have browser specific versions.

CSS preprocessors like SASS/Compass and LessCSS add real abstraction to CSS which is the main advantage over just using CSS. Variables and mix-ins allow for a good base for re-useable libraries to be created. I am surprised that more designers haven't said, this is what sucks about CSS and this is what pre-processors should do. Better yet, this is what our real needs are and how can we do it more easily?

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

@Jeff Triplett:

It seems that people are starting to look at CSS and say the same things but there is a bit more resistance.

There are a few reasons for this:

1. Most CSS gurus aren't programmers. When they start seeing logic, variables, mixins, and other programming constructs in their style sheet, they freak out a bit.

2. CSS gurus are just that: CSS gurus. They already know how to write their way out of any paper bag you can find using CSS. They're experts. They don't NEED a preprocessor. Developers are writing these things because, for them, CSS is confusing and missing useful functionality. But CSS gurus don't look at CSS that way. Most CSS gurus think CSS is, by and large, pretty darn great. Sure, we have little nits to pick, but for the most part, CSS works for us, and we know how to bend it to our will.

3. To the typical CSS designer, the command line is a frightening place.

4. Even a simple CSS guru knows that code generation reeks of inelegance (not saying Sass is inelegant or that there aren't good examples of code generation...just that, as a concept, it scares people).

Since CSS gurus don't NEED a preprocessor, they're not going to use one, until it's clear that it will somehow make their life more efficient. To a non-programmer looking at Sass and some of the similar tools out there, it's simply not clear. To them, it looks confusing, complicated, and unnecessary. Plus, it makes them jump into places they're not comfortable (like the command line).

I'm not defending designers for their ignorance when it comes to the command line and programming. You can make the argument that if they want to be at the top of their game, they should be learning this stuff. That's fine. But the reality is that the vast, vast majority of CSS gurus out there avoid the command line and programming logic like the plague. People like Nathan, who tread the line between developer and designer and do both extremely well are not the norm. Not by any stretch.

If Sass is targeted towards CSS gurus (and I'm not sure it is), it's missing all the things that target audience would want, and has a whole bunch of stuff it doesn't.

If, on the other hand, Sass is targeted at programmers who don't really like writing CSS, then it's probably doing a pretty darn good job.

Eric Meyer http://www.oddbird.net/

Hey all. I guess there was some confusion. That happens. I'm not posing as anyone, I'm just another Eric Meyer - inspired to do this thing by Other Eric's CSS/Edge back in the day.

I think Jeff Croft is right on about where some of the tension is and will be with pre-processors. The command-line was a big barrier for me, or would have been without the help of my developer/teammate.

I'm not a programmer, I'm a CSS 'guru'. I've tried my hand at programming and it's clearly too abstract for me. But I hand-roll HTML/CSS like a crazy-man. That's what I do.

I think we designers have made it perfectly clear that we want abstraction. There are CSS frameworks springing up all over - trying to make that possible. Nicole Sullivan is building her second - aiming for an Object Oriented approach to CSS. If she's not a guru, who is? But CSS frameworks turn out to be the worst of both worlds because they bloat the CSS and tie it to your markup.

What compass does, at the core, is simply remove that barrier. I wrote my first compass plugin the day I learned SASS without any real programmer-y tricks at all - just some math I was tired of doing. Through the process of updating and maintaining it I've learned a bit more about programming methods, and I've found that helpful, but I didn't need it to get started.

I don't know what you think it's missing - but regarding things it has that the target audience doesn't want, I think you're missing the point.

The target audience doesn't know that they want it, because the target audience aren't programmers already, we're designers. We've been asking for abstraction and SASS/Compass offer it - along with the tools that really make it possible. Start using them. At first you wont need 'if', 'for', etc. You still won't in your stylesheets. Then you'll get the hang of abstraction and see where they come in handy for mixins and grid systems.

Once you get the hang of it you realize you still are hand-rolling your CSS. You're just hand-rolling it in smaller chunks and solving each problem once per site. It doesn't remove the need for you to be a CSS Guru, it just makes it easier to implement your great CSS solutions. You've gained abstraction.

Gabe is right, though, about sharing the code. That's my major remaining concern. I don't normally work with other CSS devs on my team, so it isn't a problem for me in development. What I can do is make damn sure that my output code is as clean and readable as it would be without a pre-processor - with enough documentation to hand that over to any future developers.

Sass isn't perfect, and I'd love to see detailed examples of what it should do better (rather than complaints about abstraction tools). Main take-away I see so far are: SASS needs a more-CSS-like syntax (working on it), and a simpler UI than command-line. I'd give a +1 to both of those.

Andrew Ingram http://andrewingram.net/

There seems to be some sort of assumption that CSS 'Gurus' are particularly numerous. The idea that just because the existance of CSS Gurus justifies the limitations of CSS is just as flawed as the idea that CSS should be just as programmer-centric, the level of experience and/or intelligence required to achieve mastery is simply too high.

What the many preprocessors aim to achieve, is to add a tolerable level of complexity to CSS in negate the need to become a CSS Guru just to be able to produce simple and maintainable CSS. People like Jeff Croft (as an example, since he's particularly vocal here) seem very quick to dismiss their extensive expertise and experience as easy or trivial, this does themselves and their arguments a great disservice.

If good CSS is really that easy, why are so many CSS-based sites still such a mess? People don't intentionally set out to be crap at writing good CSS. The more we can lower the bar, through whatever means, the better things are for everyone.

To make a (possibly unfair) analogy, look at a perl hacker's one-liners. The stuff they can do in one line using truly terrifying regular expressions (along with perl-only extensions) is simultaneously amazing and horrifying. Truly the perl hacker is a guru of string manipulation, but to ask a newcomer to be able to learn or contribute to such code is wholely unreasonable.

Whilst it's good for individuals to achieve mastery of what they do, it's bad for them to require others to do the same if it can at all be avoided.

So in answer to the argument that CSS is fine because some people have achieved sufficient mastery to work around its shortcomings, that's simply not a good argument at all.

Every single tool I use has flaws, from Photoshop and Fireworks to JQuery, HTML and CSS, to Django and Python. Just because I'm extremely adept at using these things to the point of being able to effectively ignore their flaws, doesn't mean I think the developers of these tools should sit on their laurels.

There's still a lot of work to be done.

John Farrell http://fizzbuzz.net/

CSS isn't hard enough to justify all these CSS frameworks. Its like using Word because you found Notepad to hard.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

@Andrew Ingram These are good points. I would add that making css easier to use for novices is not incongruous with making it better for the experts too. The Sass ecosystem that compass provides is built around the concept that experts who care to can design simple mixins to complex implementations that the novices can then use with a little documentation.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

@Eric Meyer:

You make some good points. But I'm not talking about the reality of Sass and Compass, I'm talking about the perception it has amongst most CSS "gurus." You and I understand may understand that Compass removes that barrier, but I don't think the typical CSS guru does. They're put off by the complexity before they even look deep enough to understand. The typical CSS guru (I believe) takes one glance at Sass and goes running for the hills.

Your doppleganger himself once dismissed the entire concept of frameworks (for any language). If (the other) Eric Meyer doesn't "get it", who will?

I'll say it again, perhaps more clearly: if Sass is targeted as CSS gurus (think Eric Meyer, Nicolle Sullivan) and designers (think Jason Santa-Maria, Mark Boulton), they've created entirely the wrong perception -- regardless of what the reality is. These people need a convincing reason why Sass is better than hand-writing CSS. And they're damn good at hand-writing CSS, so it's not going to be easy to convince them. That's my point.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

@Andrew Ingram:

What the many preprocessors aim to achieve, is to add a tolerable level of complexity to CSS in negate the need to become a CSS Guru just to be able to produce simple and maintainable CSS.

I completely understand this, and agree with you. My point, just as I stated it in my first comment here, is simply that it's not my itch they're scratching. Sass is very cool. I get it. I like it. I see why it exists. It's just not for me. That's all.

It's apparently also not for Nathan, which is why the title of this blog post is "Sass isn't for me." We're not saying there's anything inherently wrong with Sass and its ilk -- we're simply saying it's not something that solves a problem that we are having.

So in answer to the argument that CSS is fine because some people have achieved sufficient mastery to work around its shortcomings, that’s simply not a good argument at all.

No one made that argument. I certainly do not think that CSS is fine. However, I have learned to deal with it's quirks, and therefore I don't need a tool like Sass. You may. Or someone else may. But I don't.

This is all about me, and whether or not I want to use Sass. It's not about whether I think anyone else should use Sass -- that's up to them.

Just because I’m extremely adept at using these things to the point of being able to effectively ignore their flaws, doesn’t mean I think the developers of these tools should sit on their laurels

I think I've been as vocal as anyone about the fact that the authors of CSS are lazy and slow as hell in fixing what's wrong and implementing new features. in other words: I totally agree.

To be clear: I'm very glad that Sass and its ilk exist. They're pushing the envelope. I believe it will lead us to a better place. I'm also very happy that the space shuttle exists -- and I don't use it, either. :)

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

@John Farrell:

CSS isn’t hard enough to justify all these CSS frameworks. Its like using Word because you found Notepad to hard.

I don't think the reason for these CSS preprocessors is difficulty. Rather, they're here to add functionality to CSS that doesn't exist without them. No one uses Sass because CSS was "too hard." That'd be crazy -- if anything, Sass is harder.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

@Jeff Croft

I’ll say it again, perhaps more clearly: if Sass is targeted as CSS gurus (think Eric Meyer, Nicolle Sullivan) and designers (think Jason Santa-Maria, Mark Boulton), they’ve created entirely the wrong perception — regardless of what the reality is. These people need a convincing reason why Sass is better than hand-writing CSS. And they’re damn good at hand-writing CSS, so it’s not going to be easy to convince them.

Sass is targetted at people who need to author CSS and are tired of doing the same thing over and over again. I don't know what it would take to convince these experts to try out tools that have immense potential to make them more efficient.

I would love to work with the experts to build a better tomorrow. You all have me at your disposal if you'd like to talk. Help us learn what we can do to make your lives better. Do you really think that Sass and Compass are a "lost cause" or that it has potential to make web design easier and better for all of us.

An Event Apart is coming up in San Francisco. If anyone wants to get together with me and talk for a while, I would love to demonstrate what we've built and learn from you.

Andrew Ingram http://andrewingram.net/

I agree with what you're saying Jeff, I somehow got the impression you were intending to speak more widely than just for yourself, so I apologise for misunderstanding you.

CSS 'the language' is easy, you can learn it in just a few minutes. Learning all the different possible rules doesn't take too long either. The bit that takes years is learning all the little tricks that many of us now do without thinking, learning which avenues to avoid because they are (or used to be) particularly troublesome in browsers (for example, I instinctively use margins over padding even when the end result is the same due to memories of the IE box model).

To be honest, whilst systems like Sass and LessCSS are nice for adding some conveniences, I don't think they're really contributing to 'solving' layout on the web.

I'd actually be more tempted by a more drastic approach of something that gives you a fundamentally different way of defining layout, but compiles down to cross-browser CSS (ideally choosing sensible fallbacks for older browsers, possibly using a hinting mechanism). Cappuccino, whilst all JavaScript and therefore not ideal, does a nice job of abstracting away from the way CSS does layout towards a method more suitable for its problem domain (desktop-style web applications). Something similarly ambitious, but server-side and geared towards editorial-style websites would definitely interest me.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Sass is targetted at people who need to author CSS and are tired of doing the same thing over and over again. I don’t know what it would take to convince these experts to try out tools that have immense potential to make them more efficient.

See, I'm not convinced it make me so much more efficient. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. But in order to find out, I have to deal with the learning curve of Sass, and the interruption I feel when incorporating any new tool into my workflow. Plus, I'm pretty efficient as it is.

So, for me (and I suspect others), the lure of a possible gain in efficiency, which I don't even really need, just isn't enough to make me deal with the pain of learning and incorporating a new tool.

(This is the same reason I never used Quicksilver on the Mac, by the way.)

What I'd need to be willing to deal with the pain of learning and incorporating a new tool (of any kind, not just Sass) is the promise that it's going to do something for me that I really need to have done, or solve a problem I'm actually having.

I'm not having a efficiency problem, so that's not very compelling. Nathan (to speak for him) does have an issue with converting CSS3 to CSS2, so perhaps a feature like that would be a big enough boon for him to deal with the pain.

When I switched from tables to CSS, it was because, "Oh my god I'm so incredibly tired of editing a hundred pages every time I want to change a color." That was compelling, because it was a problem I was actually having. To date, I don't see anything in Sass that solves a problem I'm actually having.

Again, I think the work you've done is impressive, I just haven't seen that one huge feature that compels me to take a leap that will require me to change my workflow. I believe there's a good chance that feature will exist in Sass one day -- but I don't see it right now.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Something similarly ambitious, but server-side and geared towards editorial-style websites would definitely interest me.

Me too. I think you may have hit on something with the point that Sass and LessCSS don't fundamentally change all that much about the way we write CSS. That's a good thing in some ways, but it definitely contributes to the "my way's just fine -- what do I need that for?" mentality.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

@Jeff Croft

Compass already provides the CSS3 -> CSS2 compatibility layer. It was already mentioned earlier by Nathan Wiezenbaum.

Compass (and sass in the next major release) provides awesome color manipulation support. You can do things like lighten(desaturate(blue, 10%), 25%). I don't know about you, but that is so much easier to understand and work with than #8686f9

If those don't do it for you, think about what huge feature would compel you to take that leap. If I can build it, I will because I have every confidence that it would help others too.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Compass (and sass in the next major release) provides awesome color manipulation support. You can do things like lighten(desaturate(blue, 10%), 25%). I don’t know about you, but that is so much easier to understand and work with than #8686f9

This is a good example of the sort of thing I mean when I say you programmers are not really scratching the itches us designers have. This kind of color manipulation is way cool, no doubt -- but I've never needed it. Not once.

I work in Photoshop. I do all my blending and manipulating of colors there. Then I just use the eyedropper tool to get the rgb or hex value.

Certainly not everyone uses the same workflow as me, and maybe someone will find that color manipulation useful. But for me personally, it's not that compelling, because my way works just as well, already.

If those don’t do it for you, think about what huge feature would compel you to take that leap. If I can build it, I will because I have every confidence that it would help others too.

Good to know. I'll definitely keep it in mind when i'm writing CSS. A lot of times, the most compelling things you could add are things I never even knew I needed, though. It's like Henry Ford: if he'd asked his customers what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse. Chances are us designers don't even know exactly what would blow us away.

Keep up the good work, man. I think Sass is way cool, and I've been pimping it in my talks, even though (at the moment) it's not personally for me.

Andrew Ingram http://andrewingram.net/

I think the colour things would be something more browser-oriented designers like Andy Clarke would benefit from, though I doubt he'd be particularly keen on setting up a complicated development environment.

Chris Eppstein http://chriseppstein.github.com/

@Jeff Croft

Thanks. I appreciate your attitude about Sass and this class of technology in general.

But, you crack me up by simultaneously saying: "you programmers are not really scratching the itches us designers have" and "Chances are us designers don’t even know exactly what would blow us away".

Eric Meyer http://www.oddbird.net/

It's all so true. Good conversation folks. I've moved away from photoshop and towards designing in the browser (as per Malarkey). Quick color manipulations are essential. And versioning already made my dev environment more complicated than compass ever did.

But I think the real gain from compass/sass is in maintaining your code. You might end up with a dozen or more colors on a site - all variants of two or three base colors. If you decide next week (or next year) that one of those base colors needs to adjust slightly, you either re-figure all your colors down the line, or you change one variable and Compass handles the math for you.

I've just run into that exact issue bringing an app out of beta.

It's the advantage of showing your work and leaving it in place. You see where all those numbers came from. It's even more important when you are working with a system like Natalie Downe's (fluid on the inside, elastic on the outside). There's a huge amount of math for each little 'width' declaration. The formula is simple, but the final numbers don't make any sense when you look at them. The ability to leave that math in the code (and only once) makes it exponentially more maintainable.

It's the same advantage you are talking about between tables and CSS, but at the next level. Weather or not you 'need to be more efficient' is your own call (or your clients), and the same one you made moving from tables, but I promise there is more efficiency to be had if you want it.

Brandon Mathis http://brandonmathis.com/

If you want a good example of the something really useful that would be impossible without Sass, checkout Fancy Buttons. http://brandonmathis.com/projects/fancy-buttons/

There's a screen cast that shows the workflow for using a compass plugin to build beautiful css buttons that degrade nicely for older browsers.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Brandon: Why would that be impossible with Sass?

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Err, I mean without Sass...

Brandon Mathis http://brandonmathis.com/

The effect is possible with only CSS because that is what Sass compiles to. The workflow however, would be impossible without Sass (or something like it). All of the complexities of browser resets, and graceful degradation, and precise calculation are abstracted away into something as simple as:

button +fancy-button(green)

Fancy Buttons takes a single color and calculates other good colors to form a nice looking css gradient for the default, hover, and active button states. It does a lot of other cool stuff too that would be quite tiresome to do with only CSS, but the really great part is. I don't have to muck about and change the styles for each type of button, I can simplify everything down to a few configurable variables.

The padding is based on a rounded calculation of the font size. The color of the font is determined based on the needed contrast from the base color. Number and color variables are all set in one place and passed through mixins. When I want to change something about how the plugin works, I can make the change in one place, without worrying that I need to update it anywhere else.

CSS doesn't offer math functions. It doesn't have conditional blocks. It doesn’t offer abstraction.

These are things that Sass provides that make something like Fancy Buttons possible, and by "possible" I mean, easy to write, easy to use, and easy to share.

I've also written a CSS sprite mixin that will be in the next version of compass. If you've ever tried to work with CSS sprite styles before, you know how difficult that can be, especially if they are in a multidimensional array.

li a +sprite-background("social-icons-32.png") a.twitter +sprite-column(1) a.facebook +sprite-column(2)

This is far more clear than the css I'd have to write, and the codes uses intelligent defaults so that I can keep my code clearer and cleaner. Here's a link to the mixin if you're interested in seeing how it works: http://j.mp/6IZ8iL

I don't use Sass because I can't write longhand CSS to accomplish these things. I use Sass because it provides me the tools to do this with elegance and simplicity, and makes writing styles, and reusing them much easier.

Jonathan Hollin http://urbanmainframe.com/

I'm afraid I'm going to be a dissenting voice here. I hadn't even heard of SASS or LESS until I came across this article. Then, obviously not being able to have an uneducated opinion, I tried LESS... in no time at all I was hooked. Variables, mixins, nested rules... what's not to like?

Without LESS (or SASS) I can hand-code complex CSS rules. With LESS I can write my CSS quicker and I can abstract out my constants (colours, typography, positioning, etc.) which, to me, immediately makes my CSS easier to maintain. Adding mixins and nested rules further boosts my productivity. I can employ a "write once use often" maxim which saves me time.

I only have very limited experience with LESS at the time of writing (perhaps an hour or so) - but already I love it and I immediately see its value in my workflow.

Furthermore, with the LESS watch switch enabled, I don't even have to think about the compilation stage - it's automated - and the CSS it outputs is cleanly formatted and well structured.

I have to say that I have been an easy convert. So, thanks for heads-up guys. :-)

Jonathan Hollin http://urbanmainframe.com/

@Nathan: I noticed! :-)

Brandon Mathis http://brandonmathis.com/

An interesting development:

https://twitter.com/cloudhead/status/6316559173

Richard Powell http://samedis.com/

I'd tried SASS some time ago and was completely boggled. The syntax is bizarre and relying on whitespace felt ridiculous. I gave it up, but recently, on @Brandon Mathis's urging, gave it (along with compass) another shot. After Brandon showed me a few of his examples, I was won over.

SASS/compass (I can't see using SASS without compass) hasn't necessarily solved one giant problem, but has helped with lots of little things.

Between abstracting CSS3 code, along with all of the different browser prefixes, into a single mixin and using @Brandon's brilliant code for handling sprites to the way Compass makes working with grid systems easy while keeping your HTML classes clean and semantic, I feel like this has really made designing in the browser much more efficient. I can make sweeping changes to the CSS by just changing a few lines in the SASS/compass code.

I still find the SASS syntax uncomfortable, but in honesty, it's grown on me. Allowing the more traditional CSS syntax in the new version will be a nice improvement.

I can see how SASS/compass isn't for everyone, it really is much more "programmer-ish" than basic CSS, but I feel the time investment to learn the basics has paid off for me.

Josh Nichols http://www.joshnichols.com/

I personally find this interesting, since most of my time is spent with HTML/CSS. My biggest issue is that it adds yet another level of complexity to an already very complex job. We already have PHP, JS, CSS, HTML, Flash, XML and XSLT all working together. Throw in extensions and other frameworks and you have a lot to troubleshoot when something goes wrong.

I’m beginning to want to move to more simple solutions with Web development. I don’t want to use layer after layer of frameworks and systems. Anything I can do to simplify things will save time. I feel like every site I build now is a house of cards. One little thing could send it crashing down.

There are only a few things that SASS offers over a CSS framework. The big one is variables, but a quick find-and-replace tends to do the job. I usually have the things I would place in variables already sorted out by the time I start my CSS anyway.

Also, being able to call bits of CSS that I can reuse isn’t really useful to me because I always have to edit the rules for the simple reason that I don’t want my sites to all look the same. One reason you design a site is so it has a unique look. Unique code goes against the purpose of these types of systems.

I was hesitant to use CSS framworks at first too and now I find them essential, so I might warm up to these things. Scaffold’s ( http://wiki.github.com/anthonyshort/csscaffold ) ability to create custom grid systems on the fly is brilliant! :-)

Charles Roper http://twitter.com/charlesroper

Very interesting discussion. I am wondering how designers ever managed to muster the mental firepower to cope with HTML and CSS in the first place. Anyone would think that once someone attains 'guru' status, their mind closes down, their brain dribbles out their ears and they become completely incapable of applying their mind to something new. OK, I exaggerate the point, but you see what I'm saying. Part of being an expert/craftsperson/guru, is that ability and motivation to constantly push the boundaries of and re-evaluate your knowledge. Isn't that what guru's enjoy doing? Since when did it become a chore to learn cool, new stuff?

I class myself as a designer. I spent an hour digging into Compass. I was sold. It's not hard by a long chalk. Fixing browser bugs, in their heyday, was much harder. Doing basic Javascript: much harder. Learning WordPress MUCH harder. (Not that I found any of these things hard, it's just they were hard compared to learning Sass/Compass.)

What sold me on Compass (and therefore Sass) was the simple fact that it allows me to employ a CSS framework, such as Blueprint or 960.gs, while allowing me to write beautiful, semantic markup, without the framework cruft littering my class attributes. It's the holy freakin' grail! I get the speed and efficiency of a framework with the semantic purity of entirely custom CSS. It's a win-win situation, all for the cost of about an hour learning something new.

I would say it's totally worth the effort. Given this baseline of good stuff that Compass delivers, it actually makes the gradual process of learning the other goodies Compass and Sass provide a fun and invigorating experience, rather than a chore.

Alex Wallace

Interesting discussion! I don't classify myself as either a designer or a programmer, as I handle both tasks without a great deal of distinction. I have not joined the Sass/framework bandwagon simply because plain old CSS still works for me. I've tried Sass and Compass and, while I appreciated the approach, it just didn't fit into my workflow, or how I generally like to approach CSS.

I might add that I love using Haml, since I found it to be a natural evolution of hierarchal structured markup. Sass didn't translate very well to the CSS that I know and love, though. Well-written CSS should not encourage so much nesting! It leads to decreased flexibility, inefficient selectors, larger file size, and, worst of all: CSS-soup (which is generally what a compiled Sass file looks like). Well-written CSS is much more about how you're structuring your markup and designing your overall site architecture than what's in your CSS file. I approach CSS with the goal of wanting to do the utmost with the fewest, simplest selectors.

I appreciate the notion of variables in Sass, but when it comes to things like changing color schemes, those are problems long solved. Writing browser prefixes is a pain to remember to do, but with TextMate it's easy to automatically generate them within your raw CSS file.

I like that people are trying new things and frameworks, and I really wanted to like Sass (as I had already used and become enamored with Haml) but at the end of the day it offered me very little I didn't already have at my disposal and took away a lot of the flexibility and habits that I rely on to be efficient with building out a site's frontend.

Jeff Croft http://jeffcroft.com/

Anyone would think that once someone attains ‘guru’ status, their mind closes down, their brain dribbles out their ears and they become completely incapable of applying their mind to something new.

I actually don't think that's far from the truth.

I class myself as a designer. I spent an hour digging into Compass. I was sold. It’s not hard by a long chalk. Fixing browser bugs, in their heyday, was much harder. Doing basic Javascript: much harder. Learning WordPress MUCH harder. (Not that I found any of these things hard, it’s just they were hard compared to learning Sass/Compass.)

Again, I'm not defending the unwillingness to learn that many top-level gurus seems to possess. My point is simply this: if one wants to be very successful marketing his tools to designers and CSS coders in today's world, one needs to gain the interest of the Eric Meyer's and Andy Clarke's of the world. And I'm here to say that Sass and Compass, in their current state, aren't the sort of things these guys are going to get excited about. Take a lesson from TypeKit: they built a technical tool and did it in such a way that it truly excited these guys. I'm just trying to help with the marketing effort, that's all.

I like that people are trying new things and frameworks, and I really wanted to like Sass but at the end of the day it offered me very little I didn’t already have at my disposal and took away a lot of the flexibility and habits that I rely on to be efficient with building out a site’s frontend.

That's where I'm at, too. I hope eventually it, or something like it, will offer me something that's useful to me.

Charles Roper http://twitter.com/charlesroper

[Sass] took away a lot of the flexibility and habits that I rely on to be efficient with building out a site’s frontend.

The thing with CSS is that the syntax itself it really pretty good. It lacks some features that would be nice to have, but the syntax itself is pretty good. You can do single-line rules, or multiline. You can choose to indent, not indent and generally mix things up so it makes sense to you. I used to use a mix of single and multiline rules in my CSS depending on the context and content of the rules. I even built my own Textmate command that collapses and expands rules. I really like that flexibility. By enforcing a strict structure, Sass, for all its good stuff, makes life a little bit awkward if you like the way CSS syntax works. I also find Python a bit awkward compared to Ruby for the same reason. It's not that Python is bad, it's just I prefer the syntactic flexibility of Ruby.

So, actually, what I really like about Sass is not so much Sass, but rather Compass. Because Compass brought me such a huge win, I learned to like Sass. The enforced structure is something I tolerate, rather than prefer. With prolonged use, perhaps I will learn to love it.

I can see from a marketing perspective, once Sass has CSS syntax in place alongside the goodness of Compass and a GUI, the world will start to take notice.

Mike Nicholaides http://ablegray.com/

@jeff said:

I really think the biggest problem here is that the developers behind these things aren’t designers, CSS gurus, or even front-end developers — they’re programmers. They don’t really understand the real problems us CSS’ers face, because they generally don’t use CSS in the kind of advanced ways we do. That’s not a slight against them — it’s just reality.

I agree. At the same time, these CSS gurus aren't necessarily programmers. Programmers are use to automating away the tedium and repetition so they can focus on the important parts.

Like @nathan said: We need some more back-and-forth between the two camps!

Bradley http://www.creativewrx.com/

lol @ the BSG reference

Seriously though I agree with the CSS coder camp v Designer prob though I see it becoming less of an issue as tools develop/overlap.

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